Earlier today, Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern announced that New Zealand will shift to Level 2 this Thursday, along with a raft of new rules that people need to follow in it - including limiting social gatherings to 10 people.
AUT Professor of Public Health Grant Schofield has been, in his own words, "pretty critical" of the Government's COVID-19 response, but he surprisingly agrees with the Government's 10 person limit.
We're pursing this elimination strategy, so you want to be able to contract trace fast and hard.
Schofield then asks, what is the end game? What is the end game to all this, where do we go?
The end game - they've been quite explicit: elimination, and wait until vaccine arrives. That is an unknown of potential gargantuan proportions. Are we really gonna keep our borders closed for years? Because that's what it'll take.
Schofield adds that "the end game is unknown, and frankly naive at the moment".
Ryan and Schofield then compare New Zealand to Sweden's approach, and where NZ should be spending it's money.
Listen to the full interview below.